So I have been reading these types of posts:
http://www.reflektions.com/miniml/template_permalink.asp?id=456
http://aralbalkan.com/1126
and wondering what is gong to be happening with flash. And if you guys are going to be killing off the mid to low flash developers as time goes by and on into the new flash players etc?
So here is my questions:
Why are we making it more difficult for non programmers to pick up actionscript and play with it? It used to be so easy for many types of designers/developers to open flash and instantly get a lot out of it. It seems like you have wanted to cater to the few that bitched about actionscripts non traditional programming format and not to the designers turned developers. Now we have gone into the AS3 days where we can't code on buttons (which is fine for me but maybe hard for others) and we can hardly code on the timeline for that matter. We are needing to start hiring engineers almost to develop flash sites now because its become so complicated to understand this new programming language. I mean this is what made flash so amazing in the past. I went to art school and got a job dong flash. And in two years I could code great sites and simple games. Now I am able to do about anything in AS2 but moving to AS3 has been a huge leap cause OOP is a completely new concept. And I think it is for MANY non traditional developers and developers wanting to pickup a product like flash WAS.
What does this mean to the future of flash? Are we going to see the traditional advertising flash sites start to fail due to budget and demand for creative engineers (which are few and far between) that want alot of money. Are you guys developing a product for app developers? Or for the MASS amounts of AS2 developers out here creating great creative work. I mean do you think flash would be where it is if it wasn't for designers to be able to open flash read a few tutorials and start tweaking code. The imperfections of actionscript coding style is what made it so appealing to SO many people worldwide. No longer can a creative director understand how to tweak a AS3 site without a tremendous amount of ramp up time to learn OOP concepts.
This new community you are trying to build is great for Flex/AIR but terrible for Flash. The creative appeal is falling away and now becoming a DEVELOPERS playground and not a 'devigners'/designers playground. You are going to find less and less designers converting to developers as time goes on making the gap that much wider between the two. And much harder for businesses to communicate between the two departments. Which will again kill the creative appeal to flash. All I ask is please be careful what you do with our precious flash. And don't forget about the mass amounts of developers that made flash what it is. By coming from a design background to become self taught flash developers who helped create the product you have today!
I feel your pain Corban! As someone who also came out of a design background, it has taken a lot of work trying to keep up with the changes in Flash over the years. Although, I use it from time to time, Flex is soemthing that never really felt right to me. In fact I still do most of my design and coding directly in the Flash IDE.
Speaking as an Adobe employee I can let you know that your post and others like it are very important for us to hear as we move forward. For now, I can tell you the following:
- The Flash IDE isn’t going away or isn’t ignored in anyway. Some fo the new features in Flash CS4 will blow your mind and they are focused on designers rather than developers.
- Flex and RIA are a really hot area right now and they get most of the news coverage, but this does not reflect an internal motive of pushing Flash to side at all. Trust me because if it was I would hand in my resignation.
- The whole ActionScript 2/3 debate is a little trickier. You can absolutely stay in AS 2 if your needs are met. But the benefits of AS 3 are so great that I always recommend people, even if they are closer to the design side of things, to make an effort to learn it.
But you have hit on an area that Adobe needs to do a better job at, and that is clarifying where Flash is going, especially as new tools and technologies come out.
Lee Brimelow
Adobe
wow… its an amazing compliment to have you come and speak on this topic. but i am just getting sad seeing the divide seem to grow further and further. I started my career as a designer/developer doing both. And each design project I had was designed for me to push my technical skills as a developer.
Now as a full-time developer I am starting to see the gap grow and the ability to have a designer/developer role slowly fade away due to the complexity of the scripting. No long can an intrigued designer jump into the coding world and make a name for himself.
I know with thermo and products like that your trying to cross the void. But those products aren’t helping teach designers to code they are just giving them simple tools to create simple tasks. and when you need to edit the code for something like what thermo is outputting (i’m sure) its still impossible cause you don’t understand the complex concepts that it was built on.
Maybe actionscript needs to change its name to ‘uber extraordinary programmers language for those with incredible smart brains only’! sorry but you know what I mean its just to prove the point.
I do hope that the CS4 changes are for the better good and for the big picture not for the app developers truly. Again don’t forget who built this to what it is today.
Update: @lee thanks again. and please keep us informed and motivated about the new versions of flash on not only the developer side but the devigner (designer/designer) side as well!
I agree with you 100% Corban. I’ve heard similar things from the designer/developer community since MX 2004 and the disappearance (and then re-addition) of the Normal Mode in the script window. While I don’t think most designers are the best candidates for building large sites, it does provide an important basis for learning and building a foundational understanding of how Flash works.
To Lee’s point, I agree that Adobe needs to better define how each of their tools helps a developer’s workflow. I would also say they need to go so far as to profile users to be able to tell them “If you’re X type of developer and want to do this, you should use Flash. If you’re Y, you should go the Flex route.” Instead, they throw every product they make at the customer, hoping the one with the catchiest marketing buzzwords in the description will stick.
One of Flash’s greatest strengths has been its flexibility to quickly build something functional and get it out the door. It feels like these latest steps by Adobe have been to try to somehow legitimize Flash in the eyes of ‘real programmers’. I don’t think this is necessary. I’m still transitioning to AS3, but it’s a chore with all the legacy code we have in-house. When we look to hire a candidate for a Flash game developer position, I could care less if he/she can code a bad-ass game in C++. I want someone who maybe has never programmed a game before, but knows Flash and all it’s advantages, tricks, and quirks. I look forward to CS4; if the preview videos from MAX are any indication, it should be a return to form for the IDE, and focus more on adding functionality people have been requesting for years - rather than changing all the syntax and language structure to appease a vocal minority.
Corban I unfortunately for a while dropped off of the planet in the flash community, but as you know lately I’m trying to make a comeback in a big way. And everything that you wrote is true and seems to be moving faster.
I told you how I interviewed with…well now that I think of it 2 of the big 3 Ad agencies here in Dallas for their Flash des/dev positions. Which I feel I was right there in the realm of the skill set, but the more they talked, it made me wonder. Then one of the interviewers asked me how would I feel about developing a site in flash with totally code only… Hmmmmm I had to concentrate that my face didn’t make a “huh” face, but I was like…that would be cool, but at the same time I was wanting to DESIGN and develop. NOT, code my mind off, especially when as you know my coding isn’t that hardcore by any means. Hopefully as was stated above that CS4 will turn Flash back in my direction. Before the actionscript totally runs out of my reach, but then here comes another hit to the wallet.
Keep up the good blogging. I’m really enjoying your topics. My site is still coming along. Hopefully tonight I can have it almost ready to start pubbing it.
Vaughn Jackson
Creative Analyst
I picked up AS3 over the course of a few months, by forcing myself to do a fully OO AS3 project. After it’s all said and done, AS3 is clearly much more complex than AS1/2. But I have to maintain a site done in AS2, with timeline code, and button/movieclip code, and it is a COMPLETE PAIN IN THE ASS to nagivate through and update. Whereas my AS3 project, has directory packages, and nicely titled .as files which have some logic to them, making the AS3 site easier to update.
I agree coding in the Flash IDE isn’t perfect, but a document class, with OO packages is FAR superior to BS timeline & button/movieclip code… Ever have to click through symbols in search of some obscure code embedded onto a button with it’s opacity set to 0, on frame 126? OO AS3 is FAR superior to that crap, and I’ve seen that from some of the “top” Flash agencies.
@LEE
I couldn’t agree more that AS3 is a stronger language. And the organization is superior at the OOP level. I am anxious to see what the Flash Team has up their sleeves for CS4…
Mostly the letter is about the type of developers non “top” agencies are going to need in the future due to the requirements of AS3. And how our freedom in the past is what encouraged creative strides with flash.
I think you’re missing some of the point here. AS3 is what AS2 wanted to be all along….it never could be that though, because Flash was never intended to be used what it is used for today. AS2 was a valiant effort at turning what was effectively a vector animation tool into a rich internet application development environment. For many of us “devigners”, all we know of programming/development is what we have learned using Flash for the last few years, and unfortunately, some of it is a bit, for lack of a better term, unorthodox. I bet that you will realize this when you get comfortable with AS3, and OOP concepts. AS3 may seem a little weird right now, but it my opinion, it is SUCH a necessary step in the right direction. Learning it will only make you a better developer. If I was to advise someone just learning flash right now, as we learned it back in the days of MX and MX 04, I would strongly advise them to start with AS3.
Trust me, the first time you type “new MovieClipSubClass()” it will be worth it. The first time you see the ease of event bubbling, it will be worth it. And the first time a runtime exception (and not a silent failure) saves you an hour of dev time, it will be worth it.
And unless I’m missing something, cant you still open flash, create a new AS2 document, and for the most part, still have the same workflow you did with Flash MX?
AS3 rocks and sucks at the same time. The strictness of it was frustrating at first but I have gotten used to countering the horde of errors it generates. Building an app is quite cumbersome now (as is navigating the help docs). I am finding that reusable classes are nice and it makes for some cleaner/easier to edit code -even though it takes about 10000% more lines code to do what a few lines of code would do before (a coders wonderland - a designers nightmare). In some cases, you have to (strangely) go WAY around things that were quite simple before (on(release), getURL, global, root, etc…). Putting an action directly on a button WAS REALLY nice. I understand that it isn’t the cleanest way to code, but if you are building something stupid simple, quick and dirty, or mocking up a prototype, it would be far easier than to write the massive amounts of code AS3 needs to make it happen. Development time has been sped up BUT ONLY if the reusable classes that you need a) exist and b) are needed. Often, our work is custom every time. So a reusable class often just gets in the way or you have to build a custom class for what you are working on; -which kind of negates the benefits of a reusable class if you have to make one for every project.
I think Corban is right. There will be large gaps forming in the Flash community now. Flash was ALWAYS the bridge between development and design. Now it is sooo far into the development (left brained) side that I foresee that designers are either going to continue in AS2 (which will eventually die - does anyone use AS1 anymore?). Or they will leave the Flash IDE altogether. Designing in Flash used to be fun because it was fluid and operated more like a right-brained creative tool. What has happened is, in an apparent effort to appeal to programmers, you have alienated the core Flash designer front (the ones who bridged that programmer/artist gap). What Adobe has done would be like reconfiguring all of the cool/fun/easy stuff in Photoshop and telling everyone that has EVER used it, “All that stuff is still there, even though it looks hidden. You will just have to adhere to a new way of using it that will require learning a new way of designing that is the industry standard of OOP programmers. You see, they need a design tool also. So we reconfigured it for THEIR needs, while adding a heap of power to it. Hope you enjoy learning all of the new features!”
Now, I am all for hard-core programmers learning how to code for .swf output.
-but…I assumed that FLEX WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT BRIDGE FOR THEM. -not Flash
BTW - the worst part of this is,…no one on the team can gauge with any real degree of accuracy how long something will take to develop. Why? Our programmers don’t use Flash -even though AS3 caters to them, not ONE of them uses it. Not ONE of them uses Flex either. Our Flash designers can’t figure out AS3 (they knew enough AS2 to get the job done - but hey, they are designers NOT coders). Our Flash Developer staff is trying REALLY hard to learn AS3 and OOP, but run into issues constantly while trying to develop and LEARN at the same time. So as you can imagine, our project management staff gets frustrated because they can’t get an accurate picture of how long something should take, other things that should be done are broken and so they can’t report to the clients anything other than bs. It is a VERY humbling experience for all.
I don’t mean to complain too much. I am getting through it (like digging the Holland tunnel with a popsicle stick). Ya have to keep moving forward (regardless of what Adobe does). Gotta put food on the table and pay a mortgage. With AS3, some days are good. Some days suck really hard. Everyday, I miss quite a bit of the old Flash methodology and wonder what horrors AS4 will bring.
I agree that it would be more difficult for someone learning Flash right now to jump in and try to learn AS3, like many of us did with AS1/2…..I believe starting with AS3 though will lead you down a better road - a more “proper” road from a development stand point.
For the longest time, Adobe had the impossible job of trying to please two crowds with Flash: the “devigners” and designer crowd, and the hardcore developers. Thats like trying to please the geeks and the jocks simultaneously….and I think they did a wonderful job for a long time….but it got to the point where the two had to be separated…..so we now have Flex. AS3 was a necessary step in that evolution. If you’re comfortable with it, use it with Flash….it will only improve your skills as a developer. If your not comfortable with it, theres nothing wrong with launching CS3, creating a new AS2 document, and using the same workflow you’ve been used to since Flash MX 04. I still do that myself. I’d say 95% of the stuff I want to do will all look the same in the player anyway….
I couldn’t agree more Corbin!!!
As one of those “designer/developers” with degrees in both Industrial Design and Computer Science, I’ve really loved using Flash over the years. Flash was always so approachable and once you figured out things like instances and paths within movie clips you could really build and control whatever you wanted. It was my go-to tool to build just about everything online, and I loved to teach other designers about AS2 and everything they could do with it. It was always amazing.
But about a year ago I started getting more and more calls from agencies needing freelance flash developers for what I thought were really simple projects. I would arrive to find teams of very talented flash designers and ask “What the hell?, Why aren’t they doing this”. What I found was that Flash had hit a kind of intimidation barrier that a lot of designers just weren’t willing to cross. When people started asking them about doing “dynamic” this, and “XML” that - they were completely freaked out. They just wanted to make really gorgeous animations and felt that they were being left behind by all the new features.
Now as a programmer I completely understand why Adobe would make a move like AS3. If you’ve every cracked open Eclipse and written some Java, its clear where things are heading. But Adobe should realize that to many people, that kind of change is an attempt at making Flash something it isn’t or shouldn’t be. They don’t want a new programming language, they don’t want a new 3D modeler, they don’t want to build RIA’a, they just want the best web animation tool for the job that they’ve been given. But Adobe seems hell-bent on moving Flash into territory outside of that tradition.
My advice would be - “Stop trying to be something you’re not”.
Well first of all i am pretty new into the flash world. I started making AS2 and now jumped to AS3. I dont have any long programming career or anything like that, but i could never dream of going back to AS2 and the workflow with scripting on buttons. AS3 is much more logic for me to understand than AS2 where.
With that said, I nearly havent touched the Flash Timeline since I began programming AS3. There must be a reason for that… But still i am full satisfied with the direction of Flash, ’cause the most exciting thing about Flash is the limits that it keeps pushing. And to what I see, it is not the small timeline animations that pushes the limits anymore. Futhermore I have not become comfortable using Flex yet, so Flash is still my weapon of choice even if it is more advanced OO scripting.
Let Flash and actionscript keep pushing the limits and dont hold it back - else it will die. Also if that means that the program has to change from what it was made for, let it.
One word for you Martin…
FLEX
I myself have been a huge fan of Flash since the early days. That was the time when i myself get fascinated with the experimental pieces done by Davis in his Praystation site, get awed with the sleek motion design of 2advanced, and enjoyed the sentimentality animation of Hillman Curtis. Pretty much at that time we only have the so called flash designers. When the slash syntax was changed to dot syntax a bunch of new titles have been coming up. Namely new media designers, flash developers and the likes. And now we have actionscript developers, flash engineers and NOW devigners??? I dont know if everything has been perfectly sense already but i myself is confused. By the time you get to master AS1, suddenly AS2 came in. And when you get to learn AS2, AS3 suddenly pops out of nowhere. Im even surprised that there are some clients of mine asking me whether I do know how to use AIR. The bottomline here is that, how come a person who started using flash 4, and was learning flash 5, then flash mx, then flashmx 2004, then flash cs so on and so fourth, could never have an edge to a guy who was learning directly to Flash CS3, in terms of coding actionscript. The things weve learned before with Flash actionscript, whether they have started in slash syntax, dot syntax, then AS1, then AS2 OOP, do sometimes prevents us from understanding the whole concept of the new AS3. And I think thats quite unfair. Its not like being a designer wherein if your working in illustrator for a couple of years already, you have an edge, because of familiarity, to anyone who are just learning illustrator coming from corel draw. cause if you are a corel draw user, and you just switched to illustrator, you have to start almost at the beginning to get a better feel and familiarity of the application — illustrator. but here in flash now, if your a C+ programmer, you could adopt yourself directly to AS3, which i think, correct me if im wrong, quite unfair to us who have been using flash since flash 4. I dont know if that make sense to anyone here, but i myself felt the pain of the sudden changes of the application.
Is Flash changing that much? I see doors opening allowing us to do more things, but I don’t really see any doors closing off what we’ve been doing. What I think is changing faster is the community of Flash users. Some of them are developers coming from a code-based perspective, and looking at Flash with fresh eyes and wondering out loud why certain features aren’t there. Others approached Flash from a graphical perspective but discovered that the more code they could combine with their graphics the more Flash could repay them with an amazing user experience. Flash users are pushing the envelope of what’s possible, doing amazing things, and for the most part sharing what what they’ve discovered along the way. Looking at all the tutorials on the web it’s easy to think you’re being shut out because you write procedural code, or haven’t written a framework, but you can still do what you’ve always done, and provide a valuable service to well satisfied customers. Flash is a swiss army knife. It’s amazingly versatile, sitting as it does on the cusp of two worlds. But if your concerns fall much more to one area or the other, there are specialized tools that may be more appropriate. On the coding side where I sit, there are alternative actionscript editors. Most anybody who spends whole days writing actionscript 2/3 should seriously look into one. On the graphics side, it’s photoshop, and video and 3D programs and I don’t know what all else, that’s a different cubicle. The point is Flash is where it all comes together, and we’re all asking more of it and doing more with it, and it’s exciting and intimidating, but you can still bang out a banner ad if that’s what you need to do.
i wont even tell my clients anymore that i do flash. it’s too frustrating. the other day, i couldn’t even get a button to work. a simple ‘click to go to a URL’ button. how ridiculous. it shouldn’t be that hard. glad you addressed the issue to Adobe.
totally agree with this post. Up until AS3 i could code anything i wanted a site, game, kiosk, you name it i felt that i could do it or at least figure out a way to do it in a timely manor. Now using as3 i feel like I’m starting over.
I have worked in small studios and now having one of my own, smaller studios don’t have the luxury of putting 10 people on a project and getting a flash developer and a designer. One of the best things about flash was there were many people who could take a design and then just run with it in flash. Now it seems more and more those roles need to be split up in the work.
I have started to learn as3 but its just frustrating after 8 years of dev going from building a process and library of code to use in projects to having to start all over again.
After the project I’ve just worked on, I’m pretty sure the Flash IDE is probably dead.
I’ve just built a game, with all assets, text strings and animation sequences defined in XML and loaded in at runtime. Although possible in AS2, using AS3’s XML/E4X capabilties made it a far more feasible task.
All tweening was done with TweenFilterLite, I created an AnimationCell class that extends Sprite and takes a transparent png contaiining multiple “cell” images and animates though it.
So the designers could concentrate on creating a whole host of assets, the programmers could build XML based MVC’s frameworks till the cows come home, and best of all, it was done completely in Flash Develop, using the free Flex 3 compiler, so the software didn’t cost a penny.